Subj:	TRAVELLER digest 364
Date:	95-07-31 18:11:51 EDT
From:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com

From:	traveller@mpgn.com
Sender:	traveller@mpgn.com
Reply-to:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com (Multiple recipients of list)
			    TRAVELLER Digest 364

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Math, science, and spelling	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 363	by MORNINMAN@aol.com
  3) Re: Math/Science and Trav (Td#362)	by "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
  4) Re: Vampire Fleets Review and a Prod in the Back	by A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1995 16:58:17 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Math, science, and spelling
Message-ID: <1105592286.1034416@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca>

One solution to a complicated design system is contracting the designs out. 
There are enough people here who _like_ designing that I'm certain you could
find someone to design a ship or vehicle to your specifications. 
Alternately, you could just use the standard designs and not worry about it. 


Actually, you don't need to be a math or engineering graduate to design
stuff; in fact, you don't even need a computer.  My high school students have
no trouble designing ships and weapons using FFS.  My friend George MacLure
designed the Sydkai patrol cruiser (MegaTraveller Journal 3) using pencil and
paper, not a spreadsheet.  

Some grammatical notes:

1) "The attraction of the original games was it's" - disagreement between
object and verb (should be "original game was its" or "original games were
their"); also, "it's" is a contraction for "it is", not a possessive

2) "the rules where secondary" - you mean "the rules were secondary", and you
should have some punctuation separating this clause from the preceeding one.

3) "which seams to pervail" - should be "which seems to prevail"

4) Frequent misuse of subordinate clauses noted.  

Assigned a D- at the grade ten level.  Rewrite and resubmit for improved
mark.  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 18:29:38 -0400
From: MORNINMAN@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 363
Message-ID: <950730182936_126476800@aol.com>

<de-lurking>

I'd like to jump in on the Techhead vs. Gamer debate that seems to be slowly
fanning itself up to full flame.

I personally think this is one of the most useful gaming resources on the
entire net.  Not just for Trav, but for any sci-fi game.  I'll happily admit
that some of the number crunching goes beyond my level of interest, but that
just helps me pull off the "That Looks About Right" approach someone
mentioned earlier.  Do I really care to have equations for the velocity of
jump launched killer rocks?  Not really, and my players don't miss it, but
just seeing the discussion and hard science involved helps inspire me.  Being
able to suck the brains of the truly science inclined makes my game more
realistic without making me get bogged down in details I don't really care
for.

If you're more of a creative type it may be productive to look at the
technical discussions as an ends to a means.  The mind-numbing number
crunching answers the questions that help to define a SF game word: Why does
a culture do this?  Why does this custom exist?  Why *aren't* killer rocks
the ultimate weapon?  My god, you're being handed incredible amounts of
technical material!  Use that solid foundation of hard fact to build the
details that make your game interesting.

Larry Niven once said that his best ideas came from coming up an interesting
premise, crunching the numbers, and finding out it wouldn't work.  Mistakes
in his original assumptions forced him to explain the problems in "Ringworld"
by writing the superior "Ringworld Engineers".  Now it seems he'll explain
the existing problems with the relationship between humanity, the Pak, and
Ringworld in the forthcoming "Ringworld Throne".  All because he discovered
 fundamental flaws in his math or reasoning that only came to light after
vigorous discussion.  Hell, he's building a career out of creatively
correcting his mistakes!

On the related issue of why T:TNE hasn't caught on with the general gaming
public I have a couple of theories.  One cause is the incredible dryness of
the source material.  Someone needs to seriously rebuild the main rulebook
and inject a little life into it as soon as possible.  A nice graphic
makeover and the addition of good prose introductions would make introducing
new players to the setting a lot easier.  I'd actually like to see White Wolf
take a crack at it. B-)

Strangely enough I think the rules have also regressed.  Back in the 80's
when rules intensive gaming was big Trav had a nice, loose system that left a
lot up to the Ref.  Now that nice, loose systems have become the big thing in
the 90's GDW comes out with a rule set that would have been right at home in
the 80's.  The kids today (God, I'm not even thirty and I'm saying that.)
just get intimidated by all the tables and charts at first glance.  Yet
another reason for reviving classic Trav.

Lastly, gamers tend to have addictive personalities.  If they don't get a
regular fix of new material they move on to something that will offer them
the constant stimulation they crave.  That's the reason Magic went boffo and
why other, IMHO inferior games, have taken off.  There has been a noticable
lack of support for GDW projects, the demise of Dark Conspiracy and lack of
Trav stuff being prime examples, that I feel has put the company on a
downward spiral.  I truly hope they'll recover, but I have very serious
doubts.  I'd even be willing to forgive them cashing in on the CCG craze with
a Traveller version if I thought it would give them the cash to get things
moving again.  Now that I think about it I actually kinda like the idea of a
Traveller card game.  Hmmm....

Cordially,
MM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 95 12:54:00 EST
From: "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
To: tml <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Math/Science and Trav (Td#362)
Message-ID: <301D656A@msmailv0.telecom.com.au>


Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:

In a sense, there already is a list for mind-numbing number-crunching
posts and detailed design sequence examinations.  The GDW-Beta list exists
for just this sort of thing, and has been very UNDER-utilized in recent
months.  There's virtually no traffic on it.
 ----------------------------

I got the impression ( I don't recall were I got this from though ) that the 
GDW-Beta list was defunct and it was an "invitation only" type of thing when 
it was operating anyway....... looks like I might me wrong about this.

Prehaps Mr. Wildstar could post the details of GDW-Beta for anyone who is 
interested in subscribing to that list (and generating a bit of traffic for 
him to read ;).

Django.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:18:57 +0100
From: A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Vampire Fleets Review and a Prod in the Back
Message-ID: <199507310922.FAA11015@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

THE REVIEW

With regard to my totally unpredujiced :-) moan about Vampire Fleets, James
Kundert points out:
> And yes, the cybernetics rules ARE referenced in the VF rules.

Somewhere in a basement of DWG (anag)...
1: "You didn't read the book thoroughly, did you" <crack of whip>
A: "No no <moan> I'm sorry"
2: "Not sorry enough are you?" <Crack>
A: "I'll never slag off another <Crack> arrgh! DWG - yes I love them, really
I do"
1: "You don't sound very convincing" <crack>
A: "No I'm a TNE convert, honest!"
1: "Give him the truth drug, robomed!" <black sphere from Star Wars
approaches, dripping needles extending from all around it>
A: "AAaarrrrgh! No, no I lllluuuuvvv...."
2: "Wow, working already - this guy's a softy. Shall we try a simple
question? Have you bought the TNE rule book."
A: "<sleepily> Yeh. The bright coverrrr - all those coloursss."
2: "And you didn't worry that it was a late rehash of another system's rules
vaguely analogous to AD&D non-weapon proficiencies?"
A: "Yehhh, I play AD&DDDD"
1: "Well done number 2, that subtle lead in confirmed he's 'one of them' - a
damned elfy-dwarfy sort of player."
A: "Noooo. We try to make ourrrr gamesss weally wealisticcc."
2: "Pah! Heretic. How could you dare to deviate from the holy way - the use
of 2 dice and only 2 dice!"
1: "Uh, number 2..."
2: "Does AD&D come in little black books, eh?"
1: "Er, 2, I think..."
2: "Do AD&D books have to be reprinted multiple times because of the
inordinate number of misprints, misalignments, missing text, erroneous
formulae, etc.?"
1: "Er, 2, I think you're on dangerous ground..."
2: "What?"
A: "Yehhh... we saww through your MegaT plot"
2: "Silence infidel... er where were we?"
A: "Anddd the FF&Ssss Mod I thingggg"
2: "Shut up!"
1: "Ask him about supplements."
2: "Okay, did you buy the transfer books - the holy Survival Margin, et al?"
A: "Yerrrresss."
1: "Truth reading was low on that one. Try again."
2: "You're lying, infidel!"
A: "Okayyy, so I waited until I found it cheap second hand...."
1: "Next you'll be telling us you don't believe in the Virus"
A: "Yourrr righttt. The Virussss issss a crockk of shhhhhhh"
<stunned silence> <Finally, number 1 unplugs his ears>
1: "You didn't hear his final blasphemy, did you?"
2: <pulls one finger from ear> "What? No, I have remained untainted by his
heresy."
1: "Well, the drugs put him out, so we'd better wait 'til he comes round"
2: "Need we interrogate him further?"
1: "No, but I want to hear him screaming as we burn him on the pyre of TSR
role-play aids..."

>This (justly) biased review brought to you by:
>James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

This (unjustly) biased review brought to you by:
Andy Lilly ;-)

(and meant in the nicest possible sense as a small piece of light relief
from the pressures of reality - any flames please respond personally and
don't hassle other TMLers. Not meant as a dig at James at all, I just had 10
minutes to spare and found my fingers wandering...).

CONGRATULATIONS AND A GENTLE PROD

I'd also like to congratulate Brendan on his post in 362 which managed to
combine a ship design with some interesting adventure plots. Better still
"Olga" in 363 - I'd been trying to think of an amusing way to point out what
stupid sh*ts I think these spam-mailers are.

When Jerry and co say "Stand up and contribute" they do have a point - the
TML always goes through phases but in the past there have been some very
good _little_ ideas proposed. Anyone want to do an updated (TNE) version of
the Hitch-hiker's Guide career? Anyone got 76-Patron type adventures? NPCs -
it only has to be a few lines write-up. What happened in your recent game
that caused you to laugh? Great quotes of our times... The point is, make it
short and snappy because you don't have the time to write a lot, most
TMLer's don't have the time to read a lot. If it gets too long for a post,
consider sending it to a magazine (after all, they seem pretty desperate for
Traveller articles at the moment - Traveller Chronicle, Signal-GK, Valkyrie,
Challenge, etc.).

NB: As soon as I know which of my submitted stuff is in TTC 8, I'll post the
other bits to TML. Just putting my ASCII where my mouth is! :-)

Andy


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 364
***************************
